"And [an] old-fashioned goth with old-fashioned beliefs. Journalist, IT geek, interpreter/translator. Clothes and jewelry designer and sometimes a model.
Ita Loli as a new type
I suggest making Ita-Loli a separate type of the Lolita fashion. Like other disliked but very nice ones, for ex. Ero-Loli, Guro-Loli etc. True Lolitas in sickly sweet brand clothes, eat me! :P"
There's a problem with marking ita as lolita. Itas generally do not follow the rules of lolita fashion, and those rules are in place to conserve lolita fashion. Even Rococo and Victorian fashions (which, if you remember, were the inspirations for lolita) had rules, copious amounts of them, in fact. If you don't have the shape and silhouette right, if you have cheap, crappy clothing...you're not lolita. And you don't get to be a "separate type" of lolita fashion when you don't follow the rules. Even ero-lolita isn't really lolita-it breaks the modesty rule of the fashion. Guro-lolita follows the rules of lolita in the shape and modesty; it merely adds a grotesque and gore-filled layer to lolita while still following its rules. Same goes for most other types (sweet, goth, military, pirate, etc...)
"As my disgusting TV teacher says, "I will explain".
Back in 2005 when I got to know what Lolita is and when I liked it, I thought it's a fairytale, cute and romantic version of Goth, non-dirty Goth [too many grammar issues to fix here]. (I'm talking about Gothic Lolita style now.) A way of being different without being modernly shameless. And I started that fashion where even wearing a short skirt with stockings is NOT sexy and slutty. Think of Kukula's works and characters. Are they something that makes you jump out of trousers? I used to think Lolita is the same."
For starters, I'm not sure if "non-dirty Goth" refers to gothic lolita being modest or what. Also, "modernly shameless" is slut-shaming in a different way than I usually hear it, so kudos to you for at least phrasing it differently.
For the record, if someone doesn't want to be modest, it's not a crime (and it doesn't make them shameless).
I took a look at Kukula's work and his work has elements of lolita, but it definitely isn't lolita. Honestly I don't think you are or ever will be, either.
"In TV shows [what shows?] I explain it like this: "When I was younger, I liked sewing clothes for my dolls, and I made them that way because I liked what they looked like. I put them on the doll because I wanted her to look the way I wanted, not "I wanted her to look hot". Same is with myself now even though my appearance is far from a doll's one: I make clothes the way I like them and I put them on because I want to look like that. Not to pick some jerks up. ""
Not sure what this has to do with lolita at all, honestly, and it doesn't contribute to your argument. Also, lolitas don't wear lolita to pick guys up so....guess this was a tangent or something.
"Like any other type of fashion, Lolita has changed since 2005. And I wouldn't say it's for the better [RAWR I hate change!!!]. Now we have strict rules I often consider stupid [no reasons why though], SAME brand dresses with sickly sweet prints, catty bitches who will give their last underpants for a new brand dress and would sigh in disgust when they see "cheap lace, shiny fabric and a Bodyline outfit" [because it's ugly]. They eat newbies so that they don't want to go on with following the style, and also there's a common opinion that it's "not a cheap hobby" [it isn't so I mean good observation]. That is - it can only be for those who are ready to starve to save for a brand dress [no one is forcing you to starve] I don't want to be called a Lolita because I don't want to have anything in common with those nasty people."
Lolita has always had strict rules, especially in the West. If you think the rules are so stupid, go find another fashion. And also, sweet lolita has become really popular, so of course there will be tons of sweet prints. Just because you don't like sweet lolita doesn't mean it's bad that so many people do, and that the dresses are so popular.
I won't disagree that we lolis occasionally "eat newbies" alive, but the majority of lolitas I've seen have kindly offered advice and constructive criticism to itas. And then the itas cry "bullying!" No joke. Doesn't always happen, but it happens enough that people are wary of it.
And it is not an opinion that lolita is not a cheap hobby. It isn't. You need to be ready to spend quite a bit on lolita; it's just part of the nature of the fashion. Because lolita (ACTUAL lolita) clothes and items are made well and with quality fabrics and textiles, it will be more expensive. Yeah, it can suck that it's pricey, and it also easily lends itself to being an elitist fashion in this way, but there's no getting around it. Lolita fashion is expensive. Even Bodyline can be expensive.
"The offensive definition of "ita-loli" (painful Lolita) is sticked [stuck] to almost all people who at least try to be creative in their outfits and general images while those who don't care for their bodies and faces but are dressed in brands are mostly appreciated. I don't mean naturally plus-sized people or those with adult faces - certain Lolita styles and outfits look awesome on them. I know it because I suffer from the last mentioned problem myself. T_T"
Offensive would be me going "wow you're an ugly bitch" (sidenote, not what I'm trying to say with this). Being called an ita can hurt some feelings but certainly isn't offensive, and it's usually "sticked" on people who are actually ita.
People can be creative with their outifts, but again, if it doesn't meet the requirements of lolita...then it's not lolita. There's a difference between following the rules of lolita while making a creative coord, and deciding you're just going to do whatever. One of these is lolita. The other isn't. The end.
"So if anyone who has their own vision of Lolita is called Ita Loli... Why can't it be separated into a branch of Lolita fashion that involves and encourages creativity [maybe because ita fashion isn't lolita]? I understand that not all tries end in success. But isn't it better to advise about how to make it better than calling a person names and telling them they're bad? How many of you had your first tries ended in 100% success? Personally I've gone through failures. Wanna see my beginnings of goth?"
I'm going to repeat: ita lolita does not follow the rules of lolita and therefore is not lolita. Fashion itself encourages creativeness, but why even bother getting into lolita if your creativity has nothing to do with the fashion?
Plenty of lolitas are willing to help itas out to improve their outfits. Yes, not every first try is going to be great, but that's what concrit is for. Also, your beginnings in goth have nothing to do with your beginnings in lolita.
"Now I'm working on a dress that would definitely be called ita. I chose white fabric used for men's shirt, it has a light purple shade. I'm gonna make a "lace monster" with kilometers of non-cotton lace.Why? Because cotton lace is such a pain in the ass to iron! See, what lolita language I am using! But I'd better be a brutal biker than a catty female snob with daddy's or boyfriend's credit card and an addiction to brands."
Okay, just wow. You know, I was gonna be nice here, but your whole "ooh, those catty and bitchy sweet lolitas!" thing is really getting on my last damn nerve. Lolitas work hard to afford what they've got. So what if someone is using another person's credit card (hopefully with that person's consent)? Just because you can't afford it doesn't mean anyone who can is suddenly a giant bitch.
And for the record, dearie, you can make your lace monster and wear it too. It still won't be lolita. It could be cute as hell and still not be lolita. You know decora? Fairy kei? Mori kei? All amazing, beautiful, and lovely. And not lolita. Not being lolita isn't an insult.
"And now I am going to say something many true Lolitas will hate me for. I don't like MOST modern brand clothes. A pregnant elephant silhouette, same sickly sweet prints and total orientation towards childish appearances and body types. But I'm sorry, aren't there taller people who understand they'd look funny in all that cutesy stuff? "
YOU DON'T HAVE TO LIKE SWEET PRINTS OR CERTAIN DRESS CUTS OR RECENT RELEASES. WHY ARE YOU TRYING TO BE SO EXTRA??? AND I HOPE WHAT YOU SAID ABOUT TALLER PEOPLE WAS SARCASM.
"I prefer what was shown in the earliest Gothic&Lolita Bibles [okay but preference =/= rules], lots of lace that looks nice, showing off stockings WITHOUT ANY sexual meaning, dark Mana-style makeup and perfectly pale skin [racist much] in combination with my REAL hair. I sometimes use extensions, but they are literally a headache so they're for "bad hair days" only. :)"
OH MY GOD YOUR PREFERENCES MEAN NOTHING. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. AND SINCE WHEN DOES LOLITA HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH SEX?!?
"A rectangle headdress is one of very few that suit me as well. It can be ita, but only when it's badly made and resembles a daily pad with lace. But please don't mix these with plainly decorated nice ones.
I'm not shameless enough to be goth. Too dark, not catty and rich enough to be lolita. So I prefer being myself. When I have my new dress photographed, I'll label each pic as "It's NOT a Lolita dress, it's a goth dress. So dont worry, I don't call myself one of you."
TBFH I'm glad you don't consider yourself a lolita. What a relief.
"I'll show you some of my Lolita attempts, of course with a dark shade of Goth. I don't think they are bad even though they break most modern Loli style rules."
I'm not even sure what to say anymore except that you're one of the most obnoxious people ever. STOP SNUBBING PEOPLE FOR HAVING MONEY.
"A try of a my own idea - rocker lolita :) I made it a bit more glamour for that party."
Note-the outfit shown was not lolita in any way, shape, or form. It was cool! But not lolita.
" Lolita fashion used to be the naive and not adult/dirty beautiful fairytale for older people who are tired of the ugly and unfriendly world. Now it seems to have become another unfriendly world concerned about money and being like everyone else. That's sad."
For the love of everything good and wholesome on this earth, lolita still has nothing to do with being adult or sexual. Also, what is your problem with things that are "dirty" or "adult"? Nothing! You sound like the world's most bitter broken record!
"And maybe "the brand fever" is a marketing trick used by brands themselves [or you know, the fact that the dresses are freaking amazing]? For ex. - people affiliated with those companies hang out in the world loli community planting those stupid opinions about what's true and what's not? All those rules look so fake and man-made [most rules are indeed man-made]... Maybe I am not right [you're not] but this is just an assumption. And if I'm right, the Loli brands will be even a bigger disappointment because I used to consider them something more fairytale-like than the cynical and snobby [is snobby your favorite word] glamour ones."
You can take your DIY "lace monster dress" and shove it right up your ass, at least then your head wouldn't be lonely. I don't know why you have such a problem with sweet lolita or with people who have money to spend on lolita, or what the hell your issue is with people showing off skin, but you need a reality check.
Ita lolita will never be a sub-category of lolita because IT ISN'T LOLITA. BYE FELICIA!!!
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